Lineage - opposing views

[norseman]

Not fully sure that this is the proper place for this but ................

I am "locked" in a fervent discussion elsewhere on the subject of "Lineage".
So far, it has stayed reasonably civil and I would be interested in hearings opinions from here.
To summarise, the two extreme positions are :-

[Mine] - Lineage is a feature of the Land. The Land being both physical and meta-physical. It is cultural, historical, traditional, ancestry and even geological. Everything that resulted in YOU - that is your lineage. It's where your mind and body came from.

For the other side, the argument is frankly coven traditional wicca. Lineage is knowledge-based, dependent on the wisdom passed to you in initiation by teachers who can trace THEIR lineage back to Gardner.

Obviously, there are all sorts of shades of grey between those positions.
Opinions ?

[WyrdHaegtessa]

ALWAYS a hot topic, right?

I think that there IS something to be said for lineage of a *practiced tradition* that is passed down and taught directly from one member to another--there's nothing like hands on teaching, of course. However, this does NOT straight across the board trump any other "lineage" from any other source and make it invalid or any less important.

On the other hand--there are OTHER sources of lineage. There's your soul's lineage, your genetic lineage, your family lineage, your spiritual lineage, the various lineages you can collect through various incarnations, etc. And in the rare case, spiritual lineages that are transferred from one to another.

I think that the whole "lineage" debate arises because people can't keep their egos in check. "OMG?!!! That person knows more than I do!! I feel intimidated!!! I'm gonna lay out the LINEAGE CARD!!!"

If something works--it works. It doesn't really need to be "displayed" for the world's approval. "I studied with Lord ShadowRaven who is an 8th generation hereditary witch of the WillowWhisp tradition." That's all nice and good--but I don't care what who or what you studied with--I care what you can do.

WHO you studied with WHAT you studied and WHO/WHAT you practiced--they all make a difference. But my experience is, those who are fortunate enough to have had quality teaching and even the ocassional authentic lineage--they aren't bending over backwards to tell you about it.

[Stuart]

Hi Norseman

Well, I'd say that half the problem is that you are using the wrong word. A relationship with the land is NOT a lineage. Lineage means that there is a line of transmission from one person to another.

You are using the wrong word, but not the wrong concept in that direct contact is more important than transmission in many cases.

This needs to be broken down more, a transmission is very useful, as long as it helps you to make that contact for yourself and thus enables you to pass on that contact. Lineage as such is merely to do with induction into a group and being able to to say "Oh I am from the line of the Ruptured Whippet" or whatever. The mere fact of lineage is nothing more than that.

The meaning of lineage changes when you consider a few things. Firstly, as mentioned, direct contact with the Land, as you say. I would NOT be so inclusive in my definition because such a simple, all-embracing definition is bound to lead to some kind of falsification and distortion, misinterpretation at any rate, even with the best of wills.

So, I would divide up the points you make, but stress that, while they are separate they are linked.
LAND
ANCESTORS
SPIRITS (guardians and of the land, among others)

To speak of lineage is to speak of mediation, the opposite of direct contact and the immediate, unless that lineage can function to create the link which makes it immedate, so it can be either a blessing or a curse. Often mediation is necessary, but if it replaces the possibility of direct contact it misfires and makes you dependent on another.

By joining a properly functioning traditional group you take on not only your own relationship to the land and to your own ancestors, but the ancestors of the Clan and its guardian spirits. More than that, it is the job of the Maid and the Magister (or whatever titles are used) to create the situation where you are introduced to the spirits, thus forging your own relationship with them.

Before I took to traditional craft I was firstly an Alexandrian, then a Gardnerian wiccan for a while. Both had their initiations and lineages, although the Alexandrian one was direct from Alex, my Gardnerian one was Whitecroft. When I discovered 1734 and Joe Wilson he was thinking differently. He said that no formal initiation was necessary and no lineage, one sought initiation from the Mysteries themselves. He never doubted that a transmission could be useful, it can shorten the process considerably as the teacher can help the student avoid many mistakes and thus enter the stream of that tradition at its broadest. So, in 1734 we have various lineages, but no lineage as such. Although I'm recognised as a 1734 elder, I have no formal initiation, but there was a transmission from years of study with Joe. The most important thing though is my own efforts at understanding, the insights that generated and enabled me to work in my own way.

I hope this helps.
FFF
Stuart

[norseman]

I am still leaning towards Lineage being all the factors that brought you to where you are and so must include your cultural inheritance and association with the Land in a spiritual and literal sense.
Given that the path I follow is very much rooted in the Earth, this seems [to me] to be a sensible approach - my rituals often take place up to my knees in a bog, a witch with dirty hands you might say.

[Stuart]

Except words mean something and lineage does not mean this. You might as well say "trouserpress" as what you mean is contact, connectedness etc. To substitute another word because it suits you, regardless of meaning, is not a good move. I think you should question why you feel you need lineage if you have connection.

Stuart

[sarasuperid]

I agree with Stuart. If you begin saying a word means everything it starts to mean nothing and be useless. Lineage usually means a tracing of tradition handed down directly between teacher to student or elder to child. I am involved in a lineage of artists trained in a particular tradition, I also have a blood lineage with my family of certain family traditions, I also have the lineage that the elder witches in my coven hand down to me. That is still a pretty wide span of meanings for lineage, we don't have to stretch it so far it snaps.

[Lolair]

I think the word you're looking for is possibly heritage Norseman

As a witch I value both my heritage and lineage and work with both together to form a solid witchcraft practice and belief system with a firm foundation based in the lineage of my tradition and also the heritage of my ancestors combined with the heritage of the place of my birth - which of course differ.

Lineage referring to a witchcraft tradition is not restricted to British Traditional Wicca, it also applies to family traditions, cultural traditions, pre-Wiccan witchcraft traditions, and modern Traditional Witchcraft traditions.
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"Everything worthwhile is dangerous" --V. Anderson