Joined: Oct 13, 2008 Posts: 36 Location: Spokane, Washington
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:49 am Post subject: The Cultus Sabbati
"text removed by moderator, requests for teaching are prohibited on the forum"
Mostly, though, I want to discuss what people have learned about the Cultus Sabbati, what books you have read by the Magisters etc and what are you thoughts on it. _________________ I drink to th' Devil and th' Dame and dance with th' spirits 'til Church Bells ring.
Joined: Jul 23, 2006 Posts: 804 Location: Old Man's Mountain
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:20 pm Post subject:
I've read the Azoetia and Qutub, but only found little within them of use - could be due to how ridiculously young Chumbley was when he wrote the first. One: The Grimoire of the Golden Toad is fun, but only useful if you wish to be a toadman. I found Shulke's work to be of more practical use for operative witchcraft. But to be honest, overall the CS reminds me of Wicca in Chumbley's combining of ceremonial magic with folk magic - the old boys' clubs with granny magic. His influences of Austin Osman Spare, Kenneth Grant, Middle Eastern Grimoires, Hermeticism, Goetia, Thelema, Kabalah, etc etc are plain to see in both his books and articles. If these aren't your cup of tea, then neither will the Cultus Sabbati be. I really respect Hermeticists and some of my friends follow that path, but I don't wish to be one myself.
Some of the material is the real deal, and some of it is intentionally obfuscated gobbedly-gook to trick the supposedly "unworthy" reader. Personally I say read what you can but don't forget to take a grain of salt with you. _________________ "Everything worthwhile is dangerous" --V. Anderson
Joined: Jul 24, 2006 Posts: 991 Location: Littlehampton, West Sussex
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:41 am Post subject:
Completely at odds with the above reviews, I will give mine, which is line with that of many influential & respected occultists, that Chumbley was a man of extraordinary vision & capable of reifying the mysteries in far more depth than those who have since attempted to impersonate him.
Chumbley was perfectly honest in his sources & as it is well known that witchcraft didn't develop & evolve in a vacuum, it should be unsuprising to anyone who has studied its development that it should include aspects of other occult & religious disciplines, notably those of heretical christianity, practices of the magical lodges & aspects of the grimoire tradition. Yet underneath all of this, and informing the manner in which it manifests, there is the heart of witchcraft.
Joined: Jul 30, 2006 Posts: 79 Location: Michigan, USA
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:31 pm Post subject:
Hello Angus,
I have found the available material to be an invaluable resource that has greatly enriched my practice and it has been nothing short of life-changing for me in many unexpected ways!
Personally, I do not see what Mr. Chumbley's age has to do with anything, considering how gifted and advanced he was in the Arte. Obviously, he must have had a lot of wisdom gained from previous lifetimes as a practitioner in order to have the understanding and rare talent that he did in this incarnation.
If one puts the material into actual practice rather than merely reading it, you will find that it "works". If a system works, then that is what ultimately matters and all the proof one should need. I feel the same when it comes to the Robert Cochrane material as well as Nigel Jackson's writings on witchery and recommend them as well, but you need to actually do the work and put it into practice. You might be pleasantly surprised!
"Viridarium Umbris" and "Qutub" have become two of my most favorite books, and it will take me years to work through all the VU material alone, although I do not yet have "Azoetia" so I cannot comment on that. All I can say is, try it and use it, see what works for you.
I also would highly recommend to go with the above, "Pillars of Tubal Cain" and "The Book of Fallen Angels", especially the workings in the backs of the books...
While you're at it, might as well get a subscription to The Cauldron magazine too as it has some wonderful and informative articles that lead you ever on.
Ahhh… the veritable Chumbley, visions, revelations, red herrings & a cultural grab bag.
I like a refreshing nip of honest opinion with my morning beverage
I agree with a modern day analysis that provides a levelheaded academic characterization of traditional witchcraft (TW) which includes the following: that TW is a specific cultural phenomenon which developed in Europe, has its roots in ancient times, but did not finish its development until the Middle Ages; that TW contains elements of folk paganism, shamanism and heretical Christianity (proportions of mix depend upon the region); that TW is not based on classical paganism of the ancient type and, further, the most significant spiritual contacts in a particular tradition are few in number, typically two or three; that although every tradition is a special case and has its own definition, it must contain certain common elements to be called TW; and, very importantly, that TW methodologies are chthonic and shamanistic in nature. So, I believe that TW is a product of cultural heritage, often with roots deep in the past; foundations based on the indigenous peoples of the area in concern. The different currents in a particular instantiation of TW will have regional variations and some threads may be very difficult to classify as they may be rooted in antiquity; in other cases it is possible to track down.
My own personal analysis would also include that superficially TW may appear to be wider than deep, but in my experience this is not the case. In other words, TW traditions will have evident contributing streams, but in inexplicable ways, the mystery of characteristically chthonic and oneiric TW experiences goes deep, very deep, into the hearts and minds of adherents and in regard to both the former and latter considerations, I believe, the CS tradition is not lacking. _________________ Regards,
Roger
Joined: Aug 01, 2008 Posts: 10 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:57 am Post subject:
Dear Roger,
It seems that a share a view somewhat similar to yours.
Could you possibly expand on the point regarding 'two or three' spiritual contacts?
Do you refer to these as the informing currents guiding individual traditions?
I think that key points to be considered are both that of FOLK paganism and heretical (and FOLK) christianity, Tannhauser and Venus story links the two quite well.
Folk-based guidance / behaviour (not limited to a cute belief in solely worshipping old gods) was regional to the folk within specific locations. The blessing (or bane) of modernity is that a multicultural outlook is being emphasised to be universally appealing, or to show resonance with a higher quantity of belief systems, this can be seen in CS workings.
My own practice is strongly based on CS workings, heretical gnosis, folk belief, cunning craft.
CS isn't infalliable, methodology influenced heavily by A O Spare (no wonder Chumbley as a young red-blooded male enjoyed that praxis! ) but it's not for everyone and it's not the only truth. However, a valuable resourse for a multitude of ideas.
Joined: Jan 22, 2009 Posts: 177 Location: South Florida
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:26 pm Post subject:
I have to say I very much like the CS books. And I find no problem with influences being taken from other paths... after all the craft is not stagnant. The VU I found an almost overwhelming abundance of information to the point of almost feeling like there was no way in hell I could ever learn that much.
I do think the Sabbatic path is not for everyone. I also, personally, think that it does delve into darkness and many crafters do not care for darkness, but I think it is a very important part of the path.
Joined: Jul 24, 2006 Posts: 991 Location: Littlehampton, West Sussex
Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:40 am Post subject:
Jane123 wrote:
I do think the Sabbatic path is not for everyone.
Agreed! I think some people forget that traditional craft is not a single monolith, it's a single source with divergent streams, each as valid as any other that is fed from & leads back to the source (like the proverbial salmon!).
I don't believe CS have ever claimed to be the only form of traditional witchcraft; indeed Chumbley in his article "what is traditional witchcraft" speaks of a number of those he knew of, and in other articles has spoken of the sources of the CS & influences on modern recensions.
Joined: Jan 22, 2009 Posts: 177 Location: South Florida
Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:22 am Post subject:
Quite right. From what I have read CS has never claimed to be anything other than what it is, and it has never attempted to hide it's influences. I find it interesting that so many people are determined to find "the one true and un-changed" original form of witchcraft. But the world is not unchanged, and the souls that inhabit the world are evolving (hopefully, lol) with each incarnation, so it only makes sense that the craft and the paths of the craft would evolve also with the people currently working any given path.
I find that the books have given me much pause for thought, and vastly influenced my understanding of myself and of nature. And anything that can do that is surely worthy of exploration.
Dear Roger,
...Could you possibly expand on the point regarding 'two or three' spiritual contacts? Do you refer to these as the informing currents guiding individual traditions?...
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:23 am Post subject: Re: The Cultus Sabbati
Hi Angus,
Though I've only been on the path of traditional craft for a short time, but I can add from my experience with the material as presented in qutub and The Book of Fallen Angels by Michael Howard is dynamic and the spirit encapsulated within the given ritual or rite makes its presence known. That seems to be a common occurrence with all of material presented by the Cultus Sabbati. I'm just beginning to work with the rites presented within the Azoetia,so I cannot say what my experiences have been with it as a whole. However, I must say that it was the various articles,books written by Andrew Chumbley and Daniel Schulke that piqued my interest in traditional craft and made me jump in feet first.
This is a path I haven't read much on... any suggestions as to where to look or good keywords to google?
As has been said before, subscribe to The Cauldron magazine. You'll find it on the net by googling. _________________ "History is just a myth that has been written down" Napoleon Bonaparte
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) but it's not for everyone and it's not the only truth. However, a valuable resourse for a multitude of ideas.
