Homosexuality in British Traditional Witchcraft

[Trad_Witch1313]

This question has been bugging me for quite some time. Is homosexuality acceptable in British Traditional Witchcraft. I myself am, and would like to see anyone elses' views on this subject.


Slainte

[QuercusRobur]

Yes, it is acceptable to the people I've met. I haven't yet met anyone who doesn't find it acceptable, but then they could be hiding it well - you know what some people are like, all very-PC when it comes to some things and yet they'd run a mile if they ever met anyone who they knew was gay.

*mutters about b**dy stupid people who if they want to live in heterosexual land should go live on Orion*

Please excuse this, my patience is low at the moment and I'm currently wondering if Political Correctness has done people a disserve - people won't say they don't like X but because they don't show it it's difficult to show them they're wrong.
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"History is just a myth that has been written down" Napoleon Bonaparte

[dre]

Echoing what QR said. It is hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that this is still an issue for people in 2010. It's to be expected from the Fundies, but I'm surprised at how much homophobic nonsense I hear from people who otherwise claim to be "openminded" (not in TW, just in life in general). I've yet to meet any person with good sense and manners who thought that somebody else's sexuality was any of their business.

[Nissien]

Hi Slainte,

British Traditional Witchcraft? For me that sounds too much like British Traditional Wicca, related to Gardenarian or Alexandrian Witchcraft?

I will assume you mean the traditional Paganism of the British Isles. I get a bit confused sometimes.

Ummm....Can I suggest that a more interesting question would be how relevant do you think your sexuality is to Witchcraft?

[Heathen1]

What does it matter? Would you change your sexuality if it wasn't? Maybe we should have a BT witchcraft Don't Ask Don't Tell policy?
Personally, I'd hope that you don't care.

[woodwose]

[shadowspirit]

[Nissien]

[quote] I know of people who have received initiation by same sex initiation (not sure how that one works....I have my own views on the 'transferring of 'power' Confused ), and also those who feel that some sexual combinations in a working context have no strength

[Nissien]

Sorry. DOn't know what happened to my reply there!

[Debbrah]

My first thought on reading your question was "what do you mean by acceptable?"What is required for you to consider it to be "acceptable"?

I've seen the range of accaptable meaning "out homosexuals are allowed to participate" to "as a gay man I can be Priestess."

Beyond that, each working group has its own framework and dynamics and roles. I've seen homosexuals work as part of a heterosexual pairing without feeling like anything was lost, and I've seen homosexual working pairings work (sometimes with individuals who are heterosexual.) It just depends on the overall dynamics. The best witches I've ever seen are pretty flexible as far as ritual work is concerned (personal attractions being a seperate matter.) "Homo-flexible" and "straight but unafraid" being descriptions I've heard. Basically a non-issue: whatever works for what is needed.

For some that it be a non-issue, others have other agendas. What are you asking about?

[Grimr]

This is certainly something that I have pondered, discussed, and researched myself so I am eager to see what others might have to say on the subject. Here are my own ideas...
Personally, to me the Craft isn't inherently sexual, some will disagree, but to me the difference lie in it not being a direct fertility cultus but rather a mystery tradition - Sexuality and reproduction isn't the basis of Witchery, rather for me it is about truth, knowledge and wisdom, in wich case sexuality plays no part.
Certainly within traditional shamanic cultures homosexuals have played a special part, and the Witch and Homosexual have a commonality about them - being that they inherently have something about them that sets them part; wanderers, outsiders. In regards to certain concepts regarding the mating with sexual entities, well I think in essence that transcends gender and sexual orientation and when experienced within rites of congress they will bring a perspective to the question at hand. Another line of though via sexual congress with entities such as the Faery-wife, in retrospect these represent the inner being of a Witch and as such would be attractive to the witch regardless of sexuality.

Now what place would homosexuality play within The Craft? Well if we are speaking under terms of magic, certain schools of thought place an emphasis on polarity (man being "active" and woman being "passive") however this calls to mind the nature of energy as a whole and in place of polarity we also have resonant energy - the thought that like attracts and amplifies like. So when viewed in that manner Man/Man or Woman/Woman would be equally as powerful in regards to the focus and generation of magic and energy.
As had been mentioned "Would you stop practicing if they said that homosexuality had no place in Traditional Craft?"
I certainly wouldn't and that to me makes all the difference.
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Nothing is truly forgotten about the Arte, for within its own domain
-the Circle- the spirits will speak to those with ears to hear. - Andrew Chumbley

[AngusMacLeod]

Hm...my reply vanished...odd...
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I drink to th' Devil and th' Dame and dance with th' spirits 'til Church Bells ring.

[woodwose]

Hi Angus, unless a mod deleted it in error, which TBH happens extremely rarely, I can't tell you what happened to your post. It hasn't been detained, I can tell you that. Perhaps you could be so kind as to re-post your reply?- this is an interesting subject.
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The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeing new landscapes, but in having new eyes - Marcel Proust

[Jane123]

If one really wanted an answer to this question, I would think one would have to decide WHY sex/sexual rites are important to the craft (unless one is looking purely to create little witchlets).

And that brings me to polarity (which Gardner loved so much and in no way bashing olde Gerald). Also remember that every thought in your head, which you think is original to you, is actually shaped, formed, and influenced by your cultural conditioning. And one of the basics of craft is to be able to "think outside the box" or outside of your cultural training.

We describe the nature of energies as positive or negative, male or female, i.e. two opposing polarities. This does NOT mean they are physically male/female. But we are so used to attributing a physicalness to those words that represent opposite, that in the deep recesses of our minds, we do. Take a look at the Black Man, or Baph. Baph has a penis and boobs - if he showed up at your ritual, who do you think HE would want to have sex with and why? Why do you think that the 'daemons" are so often depicted as andgrogenous (sp)?

Look at the symbolic nature of the male/female: form is female because it holds something (like a womb holds something) and force is male because it is a stream of energetic movement. According to some quabalistic thinking, this would make the female both the giver of life and of death, life due to it is the "female" who gives form to the force, but death due to the fact that force can only "die" once it is given a form as all forms once conceived eventualy dissolve into chaos (although the energy never really 'dies'). Yet a form without that force is inherently an "empty box" for lack of another analogy. And force without form to channel and direct it eventually scatters and cannot hold it's concentrated strength without the "female" or form. That is the importance of polarity.

As such, I would think that there is not so much a physical male/female polarity that is needed as much as a stimulator (force) to a static (form). In a sexual rite it would not matter the stimulator or the form, only that the stimulator was able to achieve the desired result, and the form able to hold the force and thereby create the "new creation" which is the combination of both force and form, (mundanely male and female). Look at BAPH again if you want a physical depiction of the combining of two polarities.

I would also think that sexual rites are very relevant to this thinking, either as the re-enactment or creation of the combined force/form (male/female as described by the mundane world) properties needed to produce a result. As such, any desired result could be initiated by ANY force and form of opposing natures/energies, regardless of physical male and/or femaleness.

The only "this world" ritual that I know of for "awakening" the force in a female (and this is a specific ritual for a specific reason - it does not mean one has to go through this ritual to consider themselves a witch in every path) requires an intense and prolonged stimulation of the woman (controled and manipulated to the point of trance and/or beyond) to draw the force into and through her. But it could be achieved by either a male or female witch/adept/partner, depending solely on their ability to draw and concentrate a specific energy through the woman and open her up to being a link/channel for that specific stream/force and thereby adjust her personal energy. Again, although it is a sexual rite, it is not a mundane sexual-giggle-giggle orgy mentality. It is a serious rite that has little, if anything, to do with this-reality sexual understanding, but a serious drawing in of specific energy to open the perosn up to a specific level of drawing, containing, and transferring force. Whether or not the ritual would be performed by the same sex is irrelevant. It only requires two energies that can produce the desired effect.

Also, Gardner was very against same-sex flogging (sorry, I can't spell scrouging and am too lazy to get the dictionary, lol). I have to disagree. Whether flogging is used as a means of "purification" or as a means of transporting the mind to a state of trance (much like in BDSM where it is used as a build-up and release to achieve an altered-state) it matters not which sex is participating, it matters that there is enough trust and skill between the partners.

And if one wants to use sex even as a form of "worship" within ritual (although my guess is that most here won't like that idea) it would matter not whether it is a same-sex act, or even if a fetish idol is used in a solitary act. What would matter is the amount of emotive energy illicited and the ability of the perfomer(s) to hold their focus on the meaning and not get lost in the physical act of sex and orgasm.

Also, the witches of old were also influenced by their cultural thiinking. Never forget exactly HOW MUCH a product of our society we are. Evil is only evil because our culture tells us it is (but that's a whole 'nother thread, lol).

And lastly, if one believes in reincarnation, then the soul would have to be bi-sexual or androgenous (sp?).

So my answer to you is it does not matter who you f*** in your rituals or in your mundane life. It matters your intent in the act, your ability to focus, your reason for the ritual, and your ability to manipulate energy.

M

[Manannin]

The question posed in this topic suggests that Traditional witchcraft is a general thing with a canon of beliefs. It definitely never has been!
Sex is not even necessarily a part of it, and therefore sexuality is not a main issue except where heredity is concerned, which is a particular factor in traditions which are often familial beliefs.