Joined: Nov 16, 2009 Posts: 86 Location: yearning for the West, living in the Ozarks
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: Danger, Explanations and Parenthood
Every now and again on this forum, I see mentioned that something is dangerous--that care must be taken lest bad things happen, people having close calls, and the need to have a assistance with certain things. As a newbie to the specific world of TW (and a person who rarely gets the chance to discuss these types of things with other experienced people), many of these references seem really, really vague to me. I don't know if it is because they are purposefully vague (ie, trying not to put too much info out into the ether) or if I'm just too unlearned in the ways of TW to know what is obvious to others (very likely). What exactly is dangerous? What are the bad things that can happen? And for a slightly different twist on this question~
For all you witches who are also parents: How has parenthood effected your practice? Is there any part of TW that you will not explore or do because you have kids in the house? What do you consider iffy or straight-out verboten? Anything? This has been on my mind a lot lately and some discussion would be helpful (and much appreciated).
Part of the reason for this question is this: When I got pregnant with my first child, I seemed to instinctively put the metaphorical foot down (hard) on all of this "other" stuff that I was exploring. I didn't want anything iffy going on around me and mine. I kept things simple and safe according to what I knew. But what I knew was limited to my own experiences, goofy "new agey" stuff that i knew wasn't right, and the old Catholic family-imposed constructs that so negatively coloured my early experiences.
Fast forward to now (that the kids are older). I feel like I've had a blanket over an important part of myself and it's high time for a breath of air. So I've started cautiously opening up again, reading, being aware. A good thing that happened during this "off" time is that I was able to cast off old filters and begin to see my experiences and beliefs clearly. This was good. A parallel spiritual incubation and nesting, if you will. But now I really feel the need to embrace this aspect of myself fully--I feel pulled to go to the hidden places, and yet every time I see references to some vague "danger", I come up against a wall---but without any real information to work from to help me around it. I also go back and forth with my inner skeptic on all of this.
Right now, I feel comfortable doing my earthy stuff, but I'm having a hard time jumping into anything Otherworld because of the mixed messages I keep getting. At one time it felt right to avoid this, but now I feel like I'm reacting to a lack of information. The thread on fear has been helpful for me personally going outside my comfort zone, but not for this. One person I know believes that any work in earthy-witchy practices kind of turns you (and your home) into a beacon for other energies (?!?) and that this can of cosmic worms should be avoided. Period. While other people seem to think that it's all cool, because it's all really metaphorical and in your head. I'm kind of a middle path person, and really just want some truth without any hype or drama.
Witchcraft can be dangerous, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Flying is dangerous, in an airplane or on a broom. Going into the underworld is dangerous either as a miner or spelunker or as a witch entering Hades.
Usually one gets training to fly a plane, or lets someone who has the training pilot. Usually miners and spelunkers go in groups and are also trained.
Nowadays many witches are flying or entering the underworld with out training. Its dangerous, and they face more danger going without training, but you can be self taught, and you can take precautions. Build up your muscle with other exercises that will prepare you, and you can learn as much about where you are going ahead of time as possible. Good travel plans.
As for abandoning witchcraft when pregnant or with small children, the witches I know have done the opposite. They have used the folklore and herbalism they know to help the baby be strong and birth easier. They have protected the baby magically and if also of a religious persuasion, blessed the baby too.
Also, I don't think people have been vague. I have noticed that when dangers are brought up specific consequences are named: madness, death, illness, and so on. Those do not seem vague to me.
Joined: Jan 04, 2009 Posts: 59 Location: South East, UK
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:57 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Also, I don't think people have been vague. I have noticed that when dangers are brought up specific consequences are named: madness, death, illness, and so on. Those do not seem vague to me.
Yes, but as a result of what specifically? As symptoms they aren't vague but I thought the question to be about practice rather than what can happen if you do do( or don't do as we've been discussing on other threads). I know you mentioned the journey to the underworld...
Working with spirits ( of all kinds be they Genius Loci or the dead) is important to explain. As with any intelligences they have their own purposes/characteristics etc. Sometimes to the point of being perceived as benign or malign. There's your potential danger.
For me it depends on who and what you are dealing with , as in everyday life. As someone put very well on another thread, sometimes you can't hope to understand the sort of intelligence you are dealing with because it is so far removed from anything human and neither good nor bad as we define it.
Some think that by ignoring initiatory experiences or 'falling short' can be very bad.
As Sarasuperid said, usually you get training to fly a plane.
When you embark on something without having been trained the journey involves alot of stumbling around in the dark which is dangerous, but part of the learning experience.
When I started reading Wicca many years ago it was like I had been given a user guide for a wrist watch when I had a computer to wrap my head around.
Sometimes you don't even have the know-how to discern what the potential dangers may be. When I started to 'reach out' I had some very hair raising experiences, thought I was mad for a while until friends and family started to see what I was seeing. This completely worried me, I was a kid naiv to what I had called out to.
Although I wasn't 'playing around' with things, I was as serious as I could be about Witchcraft within my frame of reference. Does it mean the beings I saw were dangerous? No.
But I do totally understand your concern about parenting and family for this reason. I shut off completely when my family were experiencing what was happening around me and I kick myself for it. Apart from being unusual and unknown, there was no real danger. This is why using and exploring fear is so important. Misinterpretation is a bugger.
I think we also need a bit of fear and awe in our craft to stir up the deeper recesses of the mind and get results. Rainbow starlight Unicorn pixies just don't do this for me.
Surely if we take precautions, are totally aware of what it is we are about to do and why, and heed the tales in folklore about being polite and good mannered as well as quick thinking when dealing with the Otherworld then we minimise any potential danger as best we can???
Surely if we take precautions, are totally aware of what it is we are about to do and why, and heed the tales in folklore about being polite and good mannered as well as quick thinking when dealing with the Otherworld then we minimise any potential danger as best we can???
You've hit the nail on the head there. The key to dealing with these situations is respect. I've been in situations where the Genius Loci made it abundantly clear they didn't like me being there.
I first worked out why, which wasn't hard : they were all church buildings less than 200 years old. The next step was to find a solution, which was tell the genius loci that I wasn't going to do anything even vaguely pagan.
It worked out, and one of them even returned a set of jewellery I had "lost". More usually, I just get an "I've got my eye on you" feeling, but once I had an "I won't be happy till you get off my land". However, I did not break my word, so they didn't react against me.
As to the dangers : I think accidents could happen if the genius loci was p****d off with you. If brownies are p****d off with you, things stop working. In my case, videos/digi-boxes don't record things properly - they once got my video to think it was Saturday when it was Monday. It's more a pain in the neck, but they can make you life annoying and uncomfortable if you p**s them off, and if you work with them then things go smoothly round the home.
On another forum, someone had had ants invade her flat, which was three stories up. It was just her flat, so she'd managed to p**s something off. _________________ "History is just a myth that has been written down" Napoleon Bonaparte
Joined: Jun 14, 2007 Posts: 1413 Location: New York, USA
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:30 am Post subject:
Occasionally we have had a wayward spirit appear to the children (but, that was only to the one child who saw them other places as well) and the whole family experiences the bumps, knocks, walking, something darting in the corner of the eye, things disappearing/appearing, etc., which have become a part of life since I have been active (almost 20 years). In that time I have have had only one, very brief confrontational incident with something in the hallway of a previous residence (and the children were not at home that night).
So, other than the children not liking to be alone in the house by themselves, there have been no problems. They knew/know who I am and some of what I do, as well as my protecting them, they know how to protect themselves. Now that they are grown and living on their own, they have some interesting stories to tell their children and grandchildren.
If you are afraid, in my opinion, you shouldn't be doing it. _________________ Are there such beings as witches now? We hear of none. --Then the last grand question, to which a secret of some importance is attached--What has become of them? Demonologia, JSF, 1827
Joined: Nov 16, 2009 Posts: 86 Location: yearning for the West, living in the Ozarks
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:11 pm Post subject:
sarasuperid wrote:
As for abandoning witchcraft when pregnant or with small children, the witches I know have done the opposite. They have used the folklore and herbalism they know to help the baby be strong and birth easier. They have protected the baby magically and if also of a religious persuasion, blessed the baby too.
Thanks for your reply, Sarasuperid.
Witch is never a name I've used for myself. The fact that I am looking at things that I do in the same light as witchcraft (because of the similarities) is bringing up a lot of questions for me. I never stopped doing what I simply call my "earthy" stuff when I was pregnant and had small ones, because most of that is really simple everyday, practical folklore/herb stuff. Although I never saw it as "folklore" until now. It's just what I know. Not doing that would be like....like not salting my food when I cook. That is just part of living. I don't think of it as "other". I guess I didn't express myself very clearly before. On this site, I'm finding that I have to adjust my personal vocabulary a lot to communicate within the TW framework. There's a learning curve.
As for protection, there was plenty of that, too. But again, while I might not know much, especially compared to a witchcraft tradition, (as I have always just done what was intuitively right to me), the little that I do know that has always worked for me is a very basic part of my life. I don't have to stop to think about that stuff. I just do it.
Something some of you might find interesting: there is a traditional Puerto Rican charm (amulet?) which works fantastically for protecting babies from negative energy. I witnessed one in action with my first child. Maybe some of you have seen/used something similar. It's a little baby-sized gold bracelet on which hangs a little black fist. The black fist is to draw any untoward energies to it and away from the baby. My baby wore hers for the first month or two with no problems. Then we took her out with us one day and ran into someone we knew very well--someone we thought of as a friend. He'd not yet met our baby, who was asleep in my arms. As he came close to look at her, the little fist on the bracelet shattered into pieces and fell allover the floor. This was like a slap in the face to wake me up, and suddenly I saw this person, you know? And then I went home and called my mom to send another bracelet!
So what I mean by "other" is the side of things that I was exploring before which included things like astral travel (or OBEs), communicating with spirits, etc. Today, I am drawn toward what TW calls hedgeriding and journeying to the Underworld or Otherworld. When I had certain experiences as a child and teenager that would fall into these categories, the only explanations that I could find at the time were either New Age bullsh!t or Roman Catholic bullsh!t, ie--everything was either faerie farts and rainbow unicorns or THE DEVIL!!!! DEMONS!!!! Neither of which i found acceptable. So I fumbled through it as best I could, but had no real guidance or context with which to properly understand those experiences. Now I'm feeling pulled (more like yanked) to be in this place again, and but this time I have to have in formation. So I'm reading and thinking and trying things out.
Quote:
Also, I don't think people have been vague. I have noticed that when dangers are brought up specific consequences are named: madness, death, illness, and so on. Those do not seem vague to me.
It is entirely likely that people haven't been vague. That's why I said before that it's probably obvious to everyone else, and that it's just me who's not getting it. Maybe my brain is being too literal here. Or maybe I've just not read the right threads or books yet. I don't know. You said in your post,
"Nowadays many witches are flying or entering the underworld with out training. Its dangerous, and they face more danger going without training, but you can be self taught, and you can take precautions."
This is what I'm talking about. You didn't say what is dangerous, what can happen--only that it is. And I'm not trying to be a butthead here, I swear, but again I ask, dangerous how?
I'm not expecting an answer here, because I'm starting to think that there really isn't one. The accounts of peoples' experiences with the underworld have all been different enough to suggest that you can't really know what to expect until you do it. As for precautions, aside from having a clear intent and respect, I don't know what else one would do. I don't like talking circles around things. I'm thinking that the way in is the one I find. (rolls up sleeves)
If you are afraid, in my opinion, you shouldn't be doing it.
This is the statement you all should take to heart. Intuitive witches, or "natural" witches, those without training of any sort, need to expect a few bumps in the road. I myself was not lucky enough to be taught a trad, with the inherit wisdom being passed with it. Intuition was my constant companion in the early years, however after hitting these
"bumps" I mentioned, I decided it would behoove me to seriously study everything I could get my hands on. More than one hindsight AHA!! was granted by this process, and I felt my fears subside when I learned the ins and outs of trafficing with the unseen. They are good and bad just like us and you need to have an Iron will to fight, should you ever meet with these possible dangers. If you are afraid, they will exploit this to no end. Personally I try to stick to familiar spirits only, old friends that I need not worry over.
FFF _________________ <div>certayne sorcerers, who having annoynted their bodies with an ointment which they make by the instinct of the devil, and putting on a certayne inchaunted girdle, will unto the view of others seem as wolves.</div>
Joined: Jun 18, 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Central TX
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject:
Quote:
For all you witches who are also parents: What do you consider iffy or straight-out verboten? Anything? This has been on my mind a lot lately and some discussion would be helpful (and much appreciated).
This might seem silly to some, but the one thing I absolutely will not allow in my home is a talking board. Like many typical teens I "played" with one with a few friends at a party. It was no big deal to them, but it sort of became an obsession for my "witch" friend and myself. We had some very nasty experiences which I was not ready to deal with at that age and it stunted my growth, so to speak. The fear was paralyzing and it took me a long time to work through it. Not something I want any of my kids to have to deal with.
Quote:
If you are afraid, in my opinion, you shouldn't be doing it.
Joined: Jan 04, 2009 Posts: 59 Location: South East, UK
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject:
Quote:
If you are afraid, in my opinion, you shouldn't be doing it.
But why? I can't agree with this.
I think if people acted on this then they would be missing out. I've learnt this from experience.
Any inuitive faculties should be discernable from fear of the unfamiliar.
If you intuitively felt that something was not going to end in anything but badness then of course you should steer clear, but just fearing something should not be reason enough to abandon ship.
Joined: Jun 18, 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Central TX
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:25 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Quote:
If you are afraid, in my opinion, you shouldn't be doing it.
But why? I can't agree with this.
My first thought is that fear can be used against you. It's a way in for something to hurt you. But now that I'm thinking further on the topic, I would have to say it's not only fear, but also the feeling of powerlessness that can get someone into trouble.
Joined: Jun 14, 2007 Posts: 1413 Location: New York, USA
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:51 pm Post subject:
Witchcraft has become so mainstream nowadays that every Tom, Dick and Darla with a candle, herb garden and a cat thinks they are Witch --that's what happens as a result --scaredy-witches. _________________ Are there such beings as witches now? We hear of none. --Then the last grand question, to which a secret of some importance is attached--What has become of them? Demonologia, JSF, 1827
Joined: Oct 19, 2009 Posts: 34 Location: Australia
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:34 pm Post subject:
Quote:
If you are afraid, in my opinion, you shouldn't be doing it.
If this was the case then I wonder how many Witches would make the jump? Perhaps it comes down to your own experience of courage. For me courage isn’t the absence of fear as I am sure most dictionaries define it, but rather the ability to do what needs to be done despite the experience of fear. I mention this in reference to the Otherworld and Underworld not uti seta or summoning spirits here. Having said that, I think it worthwhile to consider what a witch does and if that frightens a person or turns their stomach, then there is a good reason why witchcraft is not for everyone who may have a yen for such a practice.
I agree with Thorgrim, there are many bumps along the road and no one is always safe, however study, acquiring skills and hard work will stand you in good stead for that iron will, that no doubt at some stage you will need.
Some experiences cannot be explained, they need to be experienced. Dre, you may even discover as I did myself, that often you are given sound information and do not recognise it as such until you have the experience of it. I also do not like talking in circles so I do not intend for that to sound vague or elusive….but there it is.
I am a solitary, I had to find my own way and yet I have also received assistance at critical times that was invaluable.
You asked a valid question, This is what I'm talking about. You didn't say what is dangerous, what can happen--only that it is. And I'm not trying to be a butthead here, I swear, but again I ask, dangerous how?
Consider what realm the Underworld actually is, then consider what you may encounter on the way down. Would you want to be recognised, would you want to be followed back here. What is it to be hagridden?
Sometimes I wonder just how many witches do enter the underworld, willy nilly. By that I mean the somewhat recent prevalence of every self titled neo pagan hedgewitch/greenwitch/kitchenwitch who claims to do so. Yes I can be snarky like that.
But seriously, I have difficulty in coming to terms with the idea that Nagrind (the Corpse gate) is open to all and sundry. Then again there also seems to be a trend amongst such tales of grueling hardship, lives falling part afterwards, mental illness ….almost as a badge of honour. Which also makes me wonder.
Joined: Nov 16, 2009 Posts: 86 Location: yearning for the West, living in the Ozarks
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:48 am Post subject:
Sunna wrote:
Dre, you may even discover as I did myself, that often you are given sound information and do not recognise it as such until you have the experience of it. I also do not like talking in circles so I do not intend for that to sound vague or elusive….but there it is.
Consider what realm the Underworld actually is, then consider what you may encounter on the way down. Would you want to be recognised, would you want to be followed back here. What is it to be hagridden?
But seriously, I have difficulty in coming to terms with the idea that Nagrind (the Corpse gate) is open to all and sundry. Then again there also seems to be a trend amongst such tales of grueling hardship, lives falling part afterwards, mental illness ….almost as a badge of honour. Which also makes me wonder.
Thank you, Sunna. This is very helpful. And I agree with you completely--there are many insights that aren't clear until certain experiences make them so. I have no doubt that there is a lot right in front of my nose. (eyes crossing...)
As for fear, like Nissien said, i think that it is useful--as long as you know where the fear originates. Respecting our fear can heighten our awareness and fortify our preparedness. Fear of the unknown, however, can keep us from taking necessary steps forward. Fear of unspecified lurking dangers can keep us from being confident and sure of what we're doing. Genuine, intuitive fear can save our asses. The key is in recognizing what's what.
I am trying to arm myself with information, because I have hit bumps before. Big, big bumps. And I really don't want to do that again. There is scary sh!t out there that is to be avoided. There is also stuff that to anyone else looks scary but really isn't. More need for discernment. I can't turn away from this, so I just have to do the best I can to be smart about it.
This might seem silly to some, but the one thing I absolutely will not allow in my home is a talking board.
In Britain, ouija boards are not sold as games because people have been sectioned because of them. I read about someone who was trying to get her child back after she'd been sectioned - she'd ended up cutting herself because of ouija board use. This was in a Portsmouth paper in 1997. _________________ "History is just a myth that has been written down" Napoleon Bonaparte
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