Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 1198 Location: Pembrokeshire, West Wales.
Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:49 am Post subject: Rant: "Magic", Where Has It Gone?
Okay,
There are so many neo-pagan people harping on about "energies", what is possible with magic, and what isn't, using the laws of physics to determine this and that and giving general mundane advice to the spellseeker as magic "cant solve the situation".
Has anyone else noticed that 'magic' is becoming badly portrayed as phychology, prayer, positive thought and basic 'wishful thinking'? Does this annoy and irritate anyone else here or is it just me?
I recently read a column in a British Astrological/New age magazine, an 'Agony Aunt' section by an Irish "witch" giving supposed magical advice to people seeking magical solutions. One such entry was a woman, apparantly madly in love with a guy who felt the same, but the situation could never take off due to someone else interfearing. She was after a spell to banish this unwanted influence. The response was "It is impossible for magic to effect other people's lives, it can only be used to heal oneself, get an injunction or try talking to her".
What the hell is this all about? Obviously absolute fluff by a charlatan, but this attitude seems to be a common one cropping up all over the place. Trying to rationalize something so mystical and mysterious just leads me to believe that these people, claiming to be 'witches', have had absolutly no attempt or experience with real magic or mysticism.
If we look at old books and magical practices (pre-new age), they're full of workings to summon spirits, make oneself invisible and all sorts of other fantastic, 'supernaturally classed' things. Personally, I can vouch for this and have had many amazing and unusual experiences with the Cunning arts.
Is it not politically correct to aknowledge that we can do 'magic'? Does anyone here think that its merely phychology, prayer or wishful thinking? Or is it something thats spreading throughout the neo-pagan/wiccan community mainly like a disease? (as they all tend to follow the trend like cattle).
A friend of mine often tells me not to get so uptight about such things and let them get on with it, which I suppose is a good safety net to those genuine people that can penatrate this codswallop and seek genuine ways, but overall, its annoying rationalism that should be kept far away from 'magic'.
Joined: Mar 30, 2006 Posts: 288 Location: DEACTIVATED USER
Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:00 pm Post subject:
From my practices, I've learned that in the past, magic was used to control, manipulate, help, hurt, release, etc. It's anything you direct it to be.
I've gotten harped on by wiccans about that - too many times. That's where my biggest chip came from, and most of the disdain. They think that everything boomerangs back, and energy is unpredictable - AT BEST. The good deed could end up hurting, and the bad deed might just be a bad deed. You never really know, unless you carefully plan, and divine, or just use common sense. C'mon people.
I wear my pentacle, so apparently wiccans feel they need to "correct" me. I chose the pentacle, and well - with all my five-fold ideologies, it fits the tradition. So what? No, it's not correct to use magic for what it was for - how long? People need to disect it, pull it apart, and take the magic away from magic. The supernatural can't be explained, and that's why it was called a mystery to begin with!
I get tired of it too, because what part of "I swore not to tell" don't people understand? "What is magic" I was asked a couple months ago - I told them "not sure, but when I die, I'll ask around for you."
And, there's so much hipe about "free will" being jilted by magic. Do they know how many used that in the times past? Magic can be a chain, weapon as well as a warm blanket, I just don't get what the bickering's about. Magic's mysterious, and to try to make it positive is to try to make the electric chair just as pleasant of an experiance as a light bulb warming the cat. You just can't do that, it's not that simple. _________________ The bigger the shadow, the smaller the one casting it.
Joined: Mar 30, 2006 Posts: 288 Location: DEACTIVATED USER
Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:01 pm Post subject:
Correction - I chose the pentacle after studying it for almost a year, and not being wiccan doesn't mean I can't wear it dammit! It fits better than the triquetra, what I was taught to use. So sue me. _________________ The bigger the shadow, the smaller the one casting it.
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 1198 Location: Pembrokeshire, West Wales.
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:
Geimhreadh wrote:
I get tired of it too, because what part of "I swore not to tell" don't people understand? "What is magic" I was asked a couple months ago - I told them "not sure, but when I die, I'll ask around for you."
I like that, it's a very good answer! It kind of leaves people disapointed, yet bemused and mystified at the same time.
It gets really laborious when people start babbling on about this energy this, that energy that, the law of relativity, the law of cause and effect when it comes to 'magic'. (Insert yawn).
All we need to know is that it works. Its not science, its not physics, phychology, prayer or the stuff contained in battery-powered appliances! Its another mystery, and should remain that way.
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 1198 Location: Pembrokeshire, West Wales.
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:20 am Post subject:
Geimhreadh wrote:
Correction - I chose the pentacle after studying it for almost a year, and not being wiccan doesn't mean I can't wear it dammit! It fits better than the triquetra, what I was taught to use. So sue me.
Thats wise that you researched it before adopting it. I don't suppose many wiccans actually do this, they just assume its the patron symbol for wicca, and thats it, the five elements govenered by spirit etc.
I always though it represented man in perfection (depicted in Agrippa's diagram), or in the Christian interpretation, the five wounds of Christ, but I haven't researched it enough to say as I dont use it.
Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:08 pm Post subject: re: magic
well, i guess i have a lot of admitting to do. yeah, i admit, i sometimes explain magic away...but recently, i have read articles, especially by Robin Artisson, and by one woman who says she is an Irsih Traditionalist but is proudly American. i think she's somewhere in this forum. anyway, the articles and rants, whatever you call them, say that as Traditionalists, we should not even try to explain what magic is and how it works. the ancients didn't. why should we? sometimes, even scientific and new age principles or theories fall short in defining what magic really is, it is a MYSTERY..
i agree...and for that i say i am guilty. partly, i blame my Wiccan background. but mostly, i think that explaining a mystery sort of gives us a comfort zone where we don't have the UNKNOWN to face, where man in all his intelligence and "GOD-given" talents has explained everything and there is nothing in the universe left to explain.
re the pentacle, yes i wore one out of conformity to Wicca. i though that it looked cool, and it meant something. i still like wearing it. most people don't mind. or if they do, they won't know the real significance anyway. but i have always thought it as Da Vinci's Vitruvian man...Man made Divine. and i like it because five is a Goddess number, and it is found in the apple which is the fruit of Life in Celtic lore. it's loaded with symbology. i don't care if it should be worn or not, it's more of a personal symbol of protection, i treat it with reverence.
Benisons,
Gwyddon _________________ "O Sathan, give me my purpose!"
Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: re: magic
gwyddon wrote:
well, i guess i have a lot of admitting to do. yeah, i admit, i sometimes explain magic away...but recently, i have read articles, especially by Robin Artisson, and by one woman who says she is an Irsih Traditionalist but is proudly American. i think she's somewhere in this forum. anyway, the articles and rants, whatever you call them, say that as Traditionalists, we should not even try to explain what magic is and how it works. the ancients didn't. why should we? sometimes, even scientific and new age principles or theories fall short in defining what magic really is, it is a MYSTERY..
i agree...and for that i say i am guilty. partly, i blame my Wiccan background. but mostly, i think that explaining a mystery sort of gives us a comfort zone where we don't have the UNKNOWN to face, where man in all his intelligence and "GOD-given" talents has explained everything and there is nothing in the universe left to explain.
re the pentacle, yes i wore one out of conformity to Wicca. i though that it looked cool, and it meant something. i still like wearing it. most people don't mind. or if they do, they won't know the real significance anyway. but i have always thought it as Da Vinci's Vitruvian man...Man made Divine. and i like it because five is a Goddess number, and it is found in the apple which is the fruit of Life in Celtic lore. it's loaded with symbology. i don't care if it should be worn or not, it's more of a personal symbol of protection, i treat it with reverence.
Benisons,
Gwyddon
I would submit that the word "Magick" doesn't reflect the full meaning of what we are talking about. The word "Draoicht" (dree-uhkt) is more reflective of the Celtic cultural heritage that many here embrace.
Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: "Magic", where has it gone?
Greetings Owlblinker, All
First of all ... do please everyone let me know if you think I get a little too narky in this (language or otherwise) .... I know it is a rant area but well my life has made me a little sharp edged for some people's tastes ... being an Oz-Yob-Witch makes me sometimes a lil too rough for public stuff!
Owlblinker wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that 'magic' is becoming badly portrayed as phychology, prayer, positive thought and basic 'wishful thinking'? Does this annoy and irritate anyone else here or is it just me?
Frankly it drives me to distraction. I always apply the dictum "You know this has a different name for a REASON! Funnily enough I never spell magic P S Y C H O L O G Y or P O S I T I V E T H I N K I N G .. I figure these would be different words ... possibly even describing different things all together! After all both cats and dogs are known for their four legged, furry, pet type generalities but you certainly spot the difference when you toss a stick for them don't you!?!"
I have tried and tried but this is the politest and most clear I have ever been able to be for people that make these terms all fuzzy and blurry - they still don't tend top respond well when I say so tho .... mebbe it's the way I tell em ... *shrugs and grins*
Owlblinker wrote:
[color=green]I recently read a column in a British Astrological/New age magazine, an 'Agony Aunt' section by an Irish "witch" giving supposed magical advice to people seeking magical solutions. One such entry was a woman, apparantly madly in love with a guy who felt the same, but the situation could never take off due to someone else interfearing. She was after a spell to banish this unwanted influence. The response was "It is impossible for magic to effect other people's lives, it can only be used to heal oneself, get an injunction or try talking to her".
Hehhehehe one of my personal favourite of all time responses to such a kerfuffle was ... Hmmm .. sounds like crap from a teen age schoolgirl .. may I suggest you get laid more often ... or simply even a life? Oh damn did I say that out loud? .... oh ....
Owlblinker wrote:
[size=9][color=green]
What the hell is this all about? Obviously absolute fluff by a charlatan, but this attitude seems to be a common one cropping up all over the place. Trying to rationalize something so mystical and mysterious just leads me to believe that these people, claiming to be 'witches', have had absolutly no attempt or experience with real magic or mysticism.
Hear hear! As I used to tell my students: "You know have know how to make things actually happen the way YOU want them to .. might I suggest you DO SO or QUIT WHINGING!?!"
The way I see it most of the people who go on about witchcraft (and the other cousin "arts and crafts" as I like to refer to them) have no bloody idea whatsoever - much less any actual experience. They endlessly discuss what such and such a book said about people they were assuming things about ... anthro-apology, political correctness and a dollop of full cream BS for those who may feel "left out" on account of not having what someone else might have. You should have heard the resounding silence I got a while back when I rather tartly defined the athropological view of magic and witchraft as the inevitable result of not being allowed to join! This to say nothing of the same when I said in a giggly wistful tone as a reply to the latest fear of a possible nasty thing :"Ahhh me ... perhaps this adversity is a literal Godsend that we can turn to our advantage .. remember when being a witch meant you were capable of such things?" It was as chilly as charity let me tell you!
But seriously, at the end of the day I reckon you get your connection - in whatever manner (initiation, seeking, or just plain dumb luck and yes I have done all three! *G*) and then you are connected ... which means it is a part of you .... so what is a magical thing? It is something you (the magical being) does! Blessings occur when I think well of people and curses when I think ill ... why? Well because I am connected to power ..
That way you can't argue the old traditional "you are you aren't" rubbish it is simply back down to the oldest playing field known - either you get your way or you don't ... you got "it" or you don't. (Either you carry on and froth at the mouth endlessly or you don't ... I know which one I am! )
Owlblinker wrote:
[size=9][color=green]
If we look at old books and magical practices (pre-new age), they're full of workings to summon spirits, make oneself invisible and all sorts of other fantastic, 'supernaturally classed' things. Personally, I can vouch for this and have had many amazing and unusual experiences with the Cunning arts.
Damn right! The many "have never experienced anything like that" and you note it is always said in such a way as to SUGGEST you probably haven't either (not that the balls exist min many cases to actually call the spade a spade ... just innuendo!) ... should you do anything to actually PROVE such things to them ... well that is the end of that then ... they will proclaim loudly that nothing happened ... but run a mile!
Owlblinker wrote:
[size=9][color=green]
Is it not politically correct to aknowledge that we can do 'magic'? Does anyone here think that its merely phychology, prayer or wishful thinking? Or is it something thats spreading throughout the neo-pagan/wiccan community mainly like a disease? (as they all tend to follow the trend like cattle).
EXACTLY .. when you say you can do something that not everyone can you are being elitist, snobbish, non inclusive, unmutual and a liar obviously ... well that is what I have heard more often than not. Sheesh!!
Owlblinker wrote:
[size=9][color=green]
A friend of mine often tells me not to get so uptight about such things and let them get on with it, which I suppose is a good safety net to those genuine people that can penatrate this codswallop and seek genuine ways, but overall, its annoying rationalism that should be kept far away from 'magic'.
Nice to hear someone else can see that just cooling out must be a lovely thing to do if you CAN ,,... but brr! How hard is it some days!
And here is another one ... while folly is a good way of making sure the bebbez don't hurt themselves ... what may be the final result of saving people from their own idiocy? Maybe just maybe occasionally we should let idiots with razors actually cut themselves ... hell it used to work well in the past!!
Fraternally
Scott _________________ Owing to the fact that I have these two hands and a brain to match I have little time for debate - I do after all already know what I think! *G*
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:26 am Post subject: All is posible
You can do whatever you want to do. Just as long as you harm none. What you do comes back to you. So just mind what you do. Blessed be RavenFire _________________ It is wise not to fight in a battle of smarts with an unarmed person..
Before everyone starts arguing, Raven Fire I've never med a Trad Witch who believed in the Wiccan Rede. I've been told that if you look at karma which is Hindu it's vastly different to what us Westerners believe.
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: I'm a Witch not a fluff ball Wiccan
Yes true, but if one harms another with magick the Goddess will not be happy, and will see to it that the person will be paid back. The rule of three still aplys even if you say its not real, or you don't believe in it. I read the books of Sivler RavenWolf, and many others, and the rule of three does apply. Wicca is not Witchcraft. Not by a long shot. I'm a Witch, not a Wiccan. _________________ It is wise not to fight in a battle of smarts with an unarmed person..
I'm sorry I didn't mean to offend. It's just the Goddess is the one who does the workLOL. No really it's just more simple to say Goddess instead of God and Goddess, then some times I just forget to add God into the mix. Blessed be, RavenFire _________________ It is wise not to fight in a battle of smarts with an unarmed person..
Joined: Aug 19, 2006 Posts: 45 Location: Hamilton, ON, Canada
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject:
Hmmmm...interesting! I love this discussion!
When explaining magic to a person who doesn't use it, I always say it's "like prayer but stronger", or some such thing. If someone doesn't know anything about it, it's not like they'll understand the ideas and concepts of using magic.
Magic is SO MUCH MORE than positive thinking. It's YOU influencing the energy OUTSIDE OF YOU. And people tend to forget this. We CAN influence the energy around us. I have seen amazing results from magic I have done on my own, as well as in groups. And yes, we did a healing ritual without *gasp* asking for permission. It worked very well, and the woman is healthy as a horse now.
As for the rule of three...I kind of believe that whatever energy you send out, will eventually come back to you. Not necessarily three fold, or even the Hindu belief of it, but it will. Whatever action or reaction you make, affects SOMETHING. And whether it's magical or mundane, it has repercussions.
As for "Mama $ilver".....I don't listen to anything she writes. When someone charges money to participate in your Circle (and not even lead it), I have to question their motives. Just like TV preachers.
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It kind of leaves people disapointed, yet bemused and mystified at the same time.
It was as chilly as charity let me tell you!
