Joined: Oct 02, 2005 Posts: 34 Location: DEACTIVATED USER
Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:42 am Post subject: Rant: Why is it always the Xtians fault?
Thought that would get your attention
Anyway, I was wondering why pagans and occultists always say its the Xtains fault, they stole our festivals, they tried to opress us...etc etc.
Why doesnt anyone blame the catholics? Have I missed something here? _________________ I can show you gentle violence, Ill teach you how to seduce God...
Joined: Mar 20, 2005 Posts: 86 Location: Phoenix, Arizona United States
Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:18 pm Post subject:
Maybe *I'm* missing something. The Catholics *were* "The Christians" for a good chunk of history, particularly that alleged "oppressive/festival stealing" era.
Are you of the opinion that Catholics aren't christian? I know I've heard that argument from certain fundamentalist sects of christianity, but IMHO the Catholics are as christian as any other sect, regardless of the vast differences like the Papacy. Most Catholics I know don't like to use the label Christian to describe their faith, only because they don't want to get mixed in with the non-Catholic sects, but they do agree that they are Christian by definition. They are most certainly followers of Christ.
I'm just curious here, and not wanting to argue the semantics of a religion I'm not a part of, but I've always wondered why people are so adamant to declare that some sects, like Catholics and Mormons, are not Christian.
Somewhat off on a tangent, I can sorta see the argument that Mormons aren't Christian, (although they certainly think they are) because they are so different and so much more recent...but the Catholics were the largest and most powerful branch of Christianity for a very long time.
That said; Yes, if anyone is to blame for oppression it would be the Holy Roman Empire, the early Catholic Church. Considering, though, that most of the conversion of Europe was much more peaceful than many modern Pagans would like to admit, I use the term oppression very loosely. The so-called "theft" of festivals was really more of an overlapping of cultures, and the Romans & Catholics were hardly the first do absorb the traditions of the conquered culture.
What absolute nonsense!!! I always wonder why someone will 'champion' a cause, without having a clue as to what they are talking about? Amazing!
Pretaniash, the only thing which you seem to have missed, is the 'brain-train'.
As much as they may like to deny the fact, christians are christians, are christians. A rose by any other name.................!
To even answer the origional posted question, is like going to a gunfight against a person without arms!
If it were not for Martin Luther, christians would most likely all still be catholic.....good grief. They all fell from the same tree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If the origional poster would have at least made the distinction between 'catholic' and 'protestant', it would have at least shown a little bit of knowledge.
Be that as it may, guess what original poster.......protestants were just a guilty of butchery as the catholics. A good reference point which you may understand is: guess who was responsible for the Salem Mass. murders in the name of god? Even many years after the time period which you are referring to, the 'protestants' have 'kept up the good work' on a much smaller, and not quite so dramatic scale. Guess who was responsible for the sunday blue laws? Guess who was responsible for creating and maintaining the anti-Witchcraft laws for centuries? Guess who is responsible for doing what they can to discriminate against Witches, sorcerers, and pagans in general? Guess who is held in check ONLY by the Federal, State, and municiple laws? Guess who would (at the very least) remove all freedoms, rights, and protections for Witches, sorcerers, and pagans, immediately after said laws would be abolished? Guess who would raise a very loud protest, if any of the pagan sabbats were to become Federally recognized? Guess who is the largest crowd of people who turn out to shout and protest when there is a 'Witch' function held publicly? I could go on and on, but I really see no point, because I am sure that it will be lost on you.
Bunny, get some really good books, go back to the hutch (or burrow), lay down, and read, read, read.
Morgaine, the mormons are as christian as any of the others. They, for the most part, adhere to the christian doctrines, and have the same god/jesus, heaven/hell, satan/demons, ect., ect., mythologies. They just have some peculiar dogmatics to go with it. The word christian merely denotes one who believes in the jesus/christ mythology, and attempts to ahdere to these teachings.
Joined: Mar 20, 2005 Posts: 86 Location: Phoenix, Arizona United States
Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject:
Carnifax,
See, we can agree now and then.
Anyway, the only reason I bring up the Mormons is that I live in a heavily Mormon area, within half a mile of the second oldest Temple in the US. Even here, or maybe especially here, when people ask for a Christian church, someone will say, "LDS?" And they reply "NO! I said Christian!" Sheesh, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Followers of Christ, in whatever manner, pretty much implies Christian to me. My boyfriend is Mormon, and he most definitely considers himself to be a Christian. The argument that they're not is only because they have such major differences, (like that Jesus came a second time to the Americas) and that they're so *new*. My argument is that if they use the OT ~and~ the NT, (which they do) and follow the teachings of Christ, that pretty much qualifies them as Christians.
Either way, Catholics surely have a better claim than most to the label, whether they want it or not. And I'm sure not going to argue which of them all is *right*. That's the furthest concern from my mind.
I've seen plenty of Christians argue that their sect is the only true "Christian". Whatever, they're welcome to debate it until the second (third?) coming. I've just never seen a non-christian differentiate between Catholics and Christians that way, and am a little curious why Pretaniash would think of Catholics as anything other than Christians. Apples, oranges and bananas, they're all fruit.
And, as you pointed out, these days the Catholics are one of the more openminded sects of Christianity. I've had very good respectful discussions with Catholic priests that I'd never be able to have with a Baptist minister.
One last question for Pretaniash:
You speak of something being the fault of the Christians, but you only refer to it as *it*. What exactly are we blaming the Catholics, Christians, whomever... for? The Easter Bunny? Because if they want to use a purple stuffed rabbit to celebrate the ressurection of their god, it doesn't bother me in the least. I think it's a little funny, actually, but I don't personally feel oppressed or violated by it.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005 Posts: 4 Location: Colorado Springs
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:29 am Post subject:
I want to thank you all for the great posts. And real knowledge behind them. I just rejoined the Traditional Witchcraft Group and am very glad now I did. I think I will be very happy here. And please keep up your great posts.
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 1198 Location: Pembrokeshire, West Wales.
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:16 pm Post subject:
Pretaniash wrote:
Oh for fucks sake. No I DONT think Catholics are not Xtains!
Brain train? cheeky bitch.
I asked why ppl always blame it on Xtains, why that WORD only. Why NOT the catholics??
How plain do I have to be on this site?????????
Don't worry Pretaniash.
I think some people have their head's firmly up their own rectums here.
A perfectly viable question, that didn't really require an over-reaction and such silly, immature comments from you Carnifex, especially without even giving Pretaniash a chance to explain herself.
(Oh how Holier-than-thou art thou)
Pretanish, it just makes you wonder whether some people here are too afraid to speak like this to people face-to-face. They simply come to forums, and let off steam. (eg introverts and social misfits)
Joined: Mar 13, 2005 Posts: 125 Location: Florida, USA
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: Why is it always the Xtians fault?
Pretaniash wrote:
Thought that would get your attention
Anyway, I was wondering why pagans and occultists always say its the Xtains fault, they stole our festivals, they tried to opress us...etc etc.
Why doesnt anyone blame the catholics? Have I missed something here?
Blame? Heh, probably just a Wiccan persecution complex.
As far as Christians supposedly stealing things, I would ask if we would rather that they didn't adopt these traditions and that these traditions disappear altogether from mainstream culture. I think it is more of if a "if you can't beat 'em join 'em" scenario. Or, alternately, in some places its just not that cut and dry and I would say that each drank from the other.
Catholics? Christians? Does not really matter. It's not my way and therefore doesn't really matter. Just like the Wiccans, they do their thing and I do mine. Enough said.
It is quite obvious in this instance, just who the imature individuals are. It is generally always those who are quite imature, and do not have a very good command of the English language, who instantly must engage in base, vulgar speech. It is also usually a good indicator that such individuals generally lack the knowledge and ability to discourse on the subject at hand.
Wiccan? Who is Wiccan? Are you Wiccan? That would explain quite a lot!
I am sure that I detect the distinct 'flavor' of the bunny approach to Witchcraft. The old 'turn the other cheek', 'harm none', 'karma', kind of rot.
I on the other hand, am of 'Welsh' decent, am a practitioner of a 'Welsh' Family Trad, and have been such for probably longer than any one of you are old. I also have a degree in theology, and trust me, when I speak it is with considerable knowledge which, I trust, is not your case.
I note the two of you are 'Welsh', and I would venture that your 'Witchcraft' has been gleaned from common, bookstore variety books. If what I suspect is correct, that in and of itself, is tragic.
If the words 'christian' and 'catholic' are synonomous, then why does one need to specify? However, if one is speaking of 'catholics'. or 'protestants' specifically, then one naturally needs to make a distinction between the two.
I will say again, that if for any reason the laws which are now in place protecting Witchcraft, Witches, 'Sorcery'(if you will), and paganism in general, were repealed, you would find out very quickly just how 'oppressive' things would become.
As far as the 'they stole our festivals' (as you put it), one cannot argue with, or change historical fact. However, they were not 'stolen', per se.
One of the factors involved, was an attempt to 'off set' the 'pagan' festivals, in the attempt to facillitate an easier 'conversion' process. There were other factors involved of course. I do not see the point in going into them at this time. Are you not aware that much of the judeo/christian mythology was, in effect, 'stolen'?
Also, I really hate to burst your bubbles, but I speak just as frankly as I write.
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 1198 Location: Pembrokeshire, West Wales.
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:41 pm Post subject:
Carnifex wrote:
Pretaniash,Owlblinker,Aislingbronach,
It is quite obvious in this instance, just who the imature individuals are. It is generally always those who are quite imature, and do not have a very good command of the English language, who instantly must engage in base, vulgar speech. It is also usually a good indicator that such individuals generally lack the knowledge and ability to discourse on the subject at hand.
Wiccan? Who is Wiccan? Are you Wiccan? That would explain quite a lot!
I am sure that I detect the distinct 'flavor' of the bunny approach to Witchcraft. The old 'turn the other cheek', 'harm none', 'karma', kind of rot.
I on the other hand, am of 'Welsh' decent, am a practitioner of a 'Welsh' Family Trad, and have been such for probably longer than any one of you are old. I also have a degree in theology, and trust me, when I speak it is with considerable knowledge which, I trust, is not your case.
I note the two of you are 'Welsh', and I would venture that your 'Witchcraft' has been gleaned from common, bookstore variety books. If what I suspect is correct, that in and of itself, is tragic.
If the words 'christian' and 'catholic' are synonomous, then why does one need to specify? However, if one is speaking of 'catholics'. or 'protestants' specifically, then one naturally needs to make a distinction between the two.
I will say again, that if for any reason the laws which are now in place protecting Witchcraft, Witches, 'Sorcery'(if you will), and paganism in general, were repealed, you would find out very quickly just how 'oppressive' things would become.
As far as the 'they stole our festivals' (as you put it), one cannot argue with, or change historical fact. However, they were not 'stolen', per se.
One of the factors involved, was an attempt to 'off set' the 'pagan' festivals, in the attempt to facillitate an easier 'conversion' process. There were other factors involved of course. I do not see the point in going into them at this time. Are you not aware that much of the judeo/christian mythology was, in effect, 'stolen'?
Also, I really hate to burst your bubbles, but I speak just as frankly as I write.
Carnifex
Welsh family trad? and you live in the USA? Oh don't make me laugh Carnifex.
Thats got to be more fluffy than the silver-raven moon ferret wicca tradition.
Thats as bad as me saying I'm a priest of Osiris.
My craft has been learned directly from Welsh land, its spirits, gods, local lore and local crafters. I'm also born and bred Welsh and I live here. No family claims, no glossy books.
I suspect that as you live in the USA, and you claim to be 'Welsh family trad', that you've patched yours together from glossy books. You don't even live on Welsh land!
Either that or your convinced that your a 'family trad' because your mum, of 'Welsh decent' used to turn her pennies over at the new moon or something.
Now, don't post back with such silly statements as "you don't know me or my family". No matter what you say, I WON'T believe you, and I'm sure many other people with an ounce of sense won't.
Granny stories went out in the 90's Carnifex, so please get over it, for your own sanity.
Joined: Oct 26, 2005 Posts: 31 Location: Pennard, South Gower, Swansea
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:12 pm Post subject:
Sorry, but this is hilarious!!!
In other news, I went to chapel today,and I didnt burst into flames, they've asked me to do a talk on paganism and witchcraft. Shame you don't live here Carnifex, with your superior knowledge on Welsh Trad Craft, you could do it for me. Would save me a trip up the mountain.
Joined: Mar 13, 2005 Posts: 125 Location: Florida, USA
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:31 pm Post subject:
Owlblinker wrote:
I suspect that as you live in the USA, and you claim to be 'Welsh family trad', that you've patched yours together from glossy books. You don't even live on Welsh land!
There are traditions that exist beyond the physical boundaries of Europe. As strange as this might sound, there are even methods for exanding the boundaries or territories of the homeland. It is not the easiest thing to do, but it is definately not impossible. Therefore even though I live in the US, the land that I live on is an extension of Ireland. I expect that other traditions probably have similar methods for accomplishing the same.
Still, I always have a deep longing and sadness for Ireland. Although it extends the territory of the homeland and the Gods I have personally found that it is not exactly the same as being there. But it still works on a practical level.
I cannot speak for other people or traditions, nor do I intend to, but I can state that a person can be a family traditionalist and not physically live in Europe.
Such petulant children we seem to be. The unfortunate thing here, is that every time you 'speak', you show yourselves to to be the irrational, uncouth, unlearned beings of which you most definitely are.
However AislingBronach, you have shown intelligence in your words. Bravo! With your affinity for Ireland, why are you cluttering yourself with Quebballah, or Quebballah derived practices? You should be concentrating totally on everything Irish.
owlblinker (owl blinker? hey...is t-h-a-t Welsh?), my ancestors moved to this country in the early 1800's. The great thing is that they brought a true Welsh life with them, in toto. The even greater thing, is that they were not cultural sell outs to Quabballistic idealists. They did not have to piece together their beliefs and practices from nonsensical jewish mysticism, which by the way, is in and of itself a pasted together and modified hodge-podge of pre-existing, incredibly older practices and belief systems. (And before you say it, no I am not anti-semitic.) There was much going on in the world before the time of the formation of the monothiestic, patrifocal, religion of the Semites, and the consequential, mystical/magical practices which evolved thereof. I can very well see where there would be animosity from your direction.
I can further see where there would be considerable animosity due to my obvious superior knowledge of the subject which, up until now, you most likely believed yourselves to be 'masters' of, having read your little books of 'canned' Witchcraft, and Quabballistic folderol. It is most unfortunate, that you did not bother to go much much deeper into your studies. It is very unfortunate (in the case of the uh..'Welsh'.. individual), that you were unable to locate someone Welsh, who could teach you something really meaningful in connection with your culture, that was pre-judeo/christian influence. It may still not be too late!
Well, I truely grow weary of this silly bantering. As intertaining as it may be, I honestly see no point in conversing with you. It is obvious (as is the case with all bunnies), you are so wrapped up in your little worlds, that discoursing with you is quite pointless. Not to mention the fact that it is s-o-o-o-o beneath me (Actually, I was in need of the diversion which this little exercise has afforded me). However, I am really not sure why you decided to lodge in the 'Traditional Witchcraft Forum' though. I have no doubt that you would be much more at home in any number of thousands of Bunny Hutches, where you would be with your own kind, and be able to feed off of others in your endless mission of ego inflation.
Ah well, that is neither here nor there, it is totally up to you. It is merely a point of idle amusement.
Hopefully no one here is allergic to rabbit fur. LOL
Oh, Blodeuwedd, you should know as well as I do, that there is not 'A' singular Welsh 'Trad', no more than there is 'A'...anything. Your statement would lead one to believe that you think there is only one Welsh 'Trad'.....
However, there will no none which are pre-judeo/christian influence, that will include Quabballistic or Quabballistic derrived practices. Just as there will not be any with Zoroastrian (Persian/Babylonian/Assyrian/ect..ect.) practices which are pre-Roman or Eastern influence. I would have no problem with 'climbing the mountain'......been there, done that.
Joined: Mar 13, 2005 Posts: 125 Location: Florida, USA
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject:
Carnifex wrote:
However AislingBronach, you have shown intelligence in your words. Bravo! With your affinity for Ireland, why are you cluttering yourself with Quebballah, or Quebballah derived practices? You should be concentrating totally on everything Irish.
Thank you. However, to note, I do not study or practice anything related to the Qabbalah.
My tradition is Irish, specificly, Welsh-Irish. I do not have the time or inclination to study the Qabbalah, nor am I male or of sufficient age. ;P It is more than just an affinity for Ireland, but I do not believe that you meant that as insult. The easiest way to explain in an open forum such as this is to say that I am intrinsicly tied to the land and that the land is tied to me. I will end the explanation there as you will either know and fill in the details, or if not then enough has been said.
When I was very young I did spend some time studying Greco-Egyptian and Babylonian magical structure, but put that to rest many years ago for several reasons (but still took the knowledge with me). However, it does come in handy when examining such manuscripts and folklore dealing with topics such as giants.
Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Why is it always the Xtians fault?
Pretaniash wrote:
Anyway, I was wondering why pagans and occultists always say its the Xtains fault, they stole our festivals, they tried to opress us...etc etc.
Why doesnt anyone blame the catholics? Have I missed something here?
I admit the question threw me a little too as I'd always thought that the angst was aimed at Christians in general rather than a particular denomination.
Having said that, I do see more similarities in Catholisism pertaining to ritual and of course they have their goddess in the form of the Virgin Mary.
Persoanlly I do not share that angst anyway. This kind of plagarism has been going on for as far back as we can see. Perfect example would be the Greeks plagarism of ancient Egyptian spirituality. It is just evolution and I have no problem with it. All things evolve.
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