Rant: Why Do Trad Witches Dislike Other Witches?

[RavenFire]

Wiccan, Witch. Enough of the names already. You follow the same Lord, and Lady they do. They may go about it differently, but still. Can't there be some understanding here? And I know Wiccans do it to, I'll deal with them later. I am not Wiccan. I am a Witch, but not a Trad Witch, just, a Witch. Witch, Wiccan, big deal. We're all people. We make a big deal when other people bash us, but its ok when we bash other people? Come on, we should at lease be bigger then that.
_________________
It is wise not to fight in a battle of smarts with an unarmed person..

[Moonglade]

As a polytheist, I do not follow some generic God or Goddess figure, as if all gods and goddesses are the same. I follow my chosen god and goddess, which would be of the Irish pantheon as I am Irish in heritage. I may even in the course of my life, depending on where that life takes me, find myself following a different god or goddess than I do at present. My rituals at that point would change to align with the newly chosen god or goddess.

Wiccans are not Witches and Witches are not Wiccans, anymore than a Christian should be called Jewish just because the Christian religion uses Judaism for its basis. The philosophical outlook between Wiccans and Witches is different: from the way the gods are perceived, to the way rituals are enacted and the meaning behind them, to the concepts of karma and the afterlife. If I had to find one individual to blame for the use of Wiccan and Witch as if the terms were somehow interchangable, I would say Buckland, with his Big Blue Book of BS. At least the Farrars consistantly called themselves Wiccans.

Why the big deal with labels? You tell me. Why would a Wiccan wish to use the term Witch when his/her religion, a modern religion started by Gerald Gardner in England in the late 1930s, is not the same as Traditional Witchcraft? Why do those who "just practice magic" want to use the term Witch to describe their activities? Why do some modern-day Satanists use the term Witch as well?

I can guess. It's the same reason Paul chose to hijack the Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for the new religion he started that eventually became Christianity: the desire for perceived authenticity by aligning yourself with something older and therefore seeped in tradition. No one has ever been impressed with "Hey, check out my brand, spanking new religion!" To be judged as "real," you have to show that you've been around and if that means proclaiming to be a continuation of an older tradition, then so be it. However, you can only change a thing so much before it no longer is the thing it originally was. Presuming for even a second that Gardner was taught a traditional path by the New Forest Coven, it was by his own admission incomplete and he added to it to flesh it out. He changed it too much: the new path was no longer Traditional Witchcraft. For that matter, he chose its name and by default, the name of its followers. Why do those followers wish to call themselves other than what they are?

Wicca is a perfectly wonderful religion for those who prefer an eclectic style of spirituality with an underlying base of ritual practices and ethical behavior. What it is not is Traditional Witchcraft.

Frankly, I think the Satanists call themselves Witches just for the shock value.
_________________
Moonglade
"I am a creature of the woods, forsaken in my solitude. My song is pleasure and is pain, my song can drive a man insane. So come with me, my pipes I'll play. We shall dance 'til break of day. I shall be thy lover." Creature of the Woods

[seekerwitch]

I tend to agree with the idea that Satanists call themselves Witches for shock value too.

But actually, they don't follow any real form of Witchcraft religion. They don't really believe in the Devil as being an evil being, nor do they actually worship him. They use the Devil as an icon, more or less. They don't sacrifice or kill. Granted, they use blood, but who in the Traditional Craft hasn't?

True, Satanists are not Witches -- they are Satanists (not Devil Worshippers -- Devil Worshippers are actually the people who worship the Devil and sacrifice). Satanists just invert everything that the Bible represents. The Ten Commandments are broken, sexual desires are indulged. It's more of an egotistical religion.

Anton LeVay uses the term 'Witch' for the female members of the Satanic religion simply because of the Christian view that Witches were a sin against God and Church -- plus, Witches were women in the Bible. Thus, the females of Satanism became Witches.

Really, the whole Satanic religion is the reversal of Christianity.

[Moonglade]

I like to use the phrase "Atheists with Attitudes" WRT Satanists, at least those Atheistic Satanists who do not believe in gods per se. For most, the term is an archetype, an ideal to be achieved, the aspects of perfection as perceived by a Satanist. It's the force within a person that can be utilized for magic and in ritual. Neither the Christian concept of Satan nor the Jewish concept are literally worshipped in Atheistic Satanism.

Then there are Theistic Satanists who perceive Satan as a deity, a pagan god of sorts (I would suggest such individuals are lacking balance if they seek darkness while ignoring light, just as those Dianic pagans who only worship a goddess are ignoring the masculine aspect of Nature). Such are really pagans, and specifically "who" they are worshipping can have as many answers are there are theistic Satanists (Pan, Set, Loki, Enki, etc. came to mind.)

Then again, there are other Theistic Satanists who are inclined to accept the biblical account but with a twist: the serpent in the Garden would be perceived as Satan in this scenario but he was giving Adam and Eve helpful advice, noting that the jealous god YHWH was wrong since Adam and Eve did not die. This Satan seeks for humans to express individuality and independent thought, which can be read as opposed to the wishes of the biblical G-d.

There are also Devil-worshippers who have seen way too many Hollywood movies and cannot escape their Christian past except by literally reversing it in their rebellion: these are the only true anti-Christians I can think of since they by definition accept the basic facts of Christianity but in a reverse fashion (the Jews got it "wrong" in other words).

Not sure where to stick Gnosticism but in this scenario, the G-d of the bible is known as the Demiurge, an evil god who created this miserable universe for the purpose of trapping human souls in a material world. Most Gnostics sought their illumination from the Deity above the Demiurge that he was ignorant of or ignored in his arrogance, but I suppose some could choose to worship the Demiurge. Similarly, consider the Kurds in Iraq who are called devil-worshippers by most Muslims (see Yazidism).

Other Satanists are pantheistic, perceiving "Satan" as a cosmic force. See Star Wars.

Believe it or not, there are even Satanists who perceive Satan and all other gods are really advanced extraterrestrial humanoids who live on a distant planet, occasionally visit Earth in the flesh, and at other times stay in touch with us via telepathy. Takes all kinds, I guess.
_________________
Moonglade
"I am a creature of the woods, forsaken in my solitude. My song is pleasure and is pain, my song can drive a man insane. So come with me, my pipes I'll play. We shall dance 'til break of day. I shall be thy lover." Creature of the Woods

[RavenFire]

Ok, I didn't say Wiccans, eventhough I agree. And Satan? I thought I went off the topic in some of my posts. I just wanted to know why some of the Trad "Witches" hated, or REALLY, REALLY did not like other Witches. but feel free to answer this when you get around to itLOL
_________________
It is wise not to fight in a battle of smarts with an unarmed person..

[QuercusRobur]

Moonglade, according to a Gnostic Catholic mate of mine the gods of the New Testament and Old Testament are different gods, and he worships the New Testament one. That rather fits in with what you were saying about Paul shoving a new religion on top of an old one.

Raven Fire, no I don't worship the "Lord and the Lady" and have had arguments on another forum where I said something like : "Mary is not The Morrigan is not Aine". All goddesses to me are different, not one goddess.
_________________
"History is just a myth that has been written down" Napoleon Bonaparte

[Martin]

"You follow the same Lord, and Lady they do."

I think this perfectly illustrates why traditional witches get a bit irritated with wiccans and other 'witches'. It is the assumption that traditional witchcraft upholds the same ideals as wicca, but goes about it by other means. This is simply not true - in fact I would say many trad witches are as happy to argue with other trad witches as they are with wiccans, even though they share some common ground!

That said, I don't feel there is anything wrong with wicca and other expressions of belief etc, it's just it's quite annoying when someone tells you that actually we all believe the same things and worship the same gods etc etc, when it's patently obvious we don't. This is a place to discuss traditional witchcraft, and as there aren't many places where one can do that, it's quite irritating to find the board hijacked by discussions of wicca - so there is bound to be some cross words.

Martin

[owl]

[Greenginger]

although nameless, I can assure yoy The Old Boy and The Old Girl are not just aspects of one greater God or Goddess.

they are completely separate and individual beings to any other Gods.

[Yup-THAT_Scott]

Greetings All

[Thorgrim]

I dont want to hijack this thread by any means, it's just the whole "satanist" thing here is getting crazy. Let us not forget that The horned one, the Lord. Is the god that men call the devil today. He was no devil before the advent of christianity. The bible as we know is only a storybook to keep men in order. We are all "satanists" in their eyes(christians, muslims, jews). I call myself "of the old ways". Perspective is everything.

[Yup-THAT_Scott]

Greetings Thorgrim, All

[Crom]

I am a Christian and a Witch and do not consider the Horned God the devil. No where in the Bible does it say any thing about the devil having horns. That came about in the Dark and Middle ages from the so-called church fathers.

Of course I interpret the Bible far deferent than the norm. I believe the devil (if he exist) ether is or works through the ego.

The Horned God is a God of a religion like any other that you have a right to worship as you see fit. And I would stand by that right and even fight for it.

But witchcraft does not have to be a religion. I am a secular Witch, and keep it totally separate from my religion. I actually see my magic through terms of science. I like to read about Quantum Physics, conciseness science and psychology. It was reading the book the Mind and the Brain by Dr. Jeffrey Schwartz that steered me down the path to understanding how conciseness can effect matter.

[Thorgrim]

You are no witch. You are a magician. Witchcraft when used as a magickal system ,rather than a religion of sorts can be done as well as any other paradigm of your choosing(even christianity). You are a chaos magician, not a witch. Does'nt take an intuitive to get that from your post.

[QuercusRobur]